アマヤドリ古参劇団員座談会・後編!!

 

「悪と自由」三部作完結記念! 

 

アマヤドリ古参劇団員座談会・後編

 

長く劇団員をやってきた古参三人で色々語ってもらいましたっ!

 

 

中村早香×笠井里美×松下仁

 

※司会担当は「せいま」こと沼田星麻さんです!

 

※注釈部分の敬称略

 

(中編からのつづきです)

 

 

◆◆◆『穂の国の「転校生」』について

 

 

───では最後に、これは里美さん中心の話題になってしまうんですけれど、豊橋でやった『穂の国の「転校生」』〔※2014年11月@穂の国とよはし芸術劇場プラット、作:平田オリザ/演出:広田淳一。出演は21人の女子高校生キャスト。笠井里美は演出助手で参加〕について詳しく聞かせていただけますか。広田さんにとっても大きな体験だったようですので。

 

笠井:うん……そうだね、『穂の国の「転校生」』は、ほんとに色んな意味で影響の大きい体験だった。

 ……高校生ってすっごいいいバランスの年代で。中学生だと若過ぎるし、大学生だともう色んなものを吸収し過ぎてる。でも高校生ってちょうどいいんだよね、なんか知識も語彙もそろってきていて、感情とか見方とかも広がりつつあるときで、そんなちょうどいい時期に、まあ……あのー、演劇ってさ、すごいじゃんやっぱ。最初の舞台って影響がすごいじゃない。数十人っていう人間が一斉に同じ方向を向いて一つのことを成功させようとするなんてなかなかないし。でも、演劇を通じてそれを経験したのが、まず彼女たちにとってものすごい体験だったの、たぶん。

 

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 ……で、あたしたちもさ、最近よく言うけど、長年やってると、感覚が鈍ってくるじゃないけど、やっぱり初めて観たものの感動をなかなか超えていけないっていうのがあって。お芝居を観ても、お芝居をやっても、経験を積んでいくにしたがって最初の感覚から遠くなっていくような感じがあって……最近、そういうことを感じていたからこそ、豊橋で、彼女たちの初めての体験の瞬間に立ち会って、こっちもすごい感動したんだよね。彼女たちの物事の捉え方がすごい新鮮で。

 ……彼女たちは基本はぬるいからさ、無意識で。まあ、お芝居の世界なんて全然知らないわけだから。だって、ほんとに普通に学校に行ってる放送部の子とか、バトミントン部の子とか、演劇なんて全然やったことないって子が、「ちょっと楽しそうだから」とか、「ちょっと演劇やってみたいと思ったから」ていう、そういう、「ちょっと応募してみよう」みたいな感じで来た子もけっこういたからさ……。だから悪気はないんだろうけど、稽古中にお喋りしちゃったりとか、科白もなかなか覚えてこないし、みたいな感覚のズレがあったんだよ。それを私なんかは、わーどうしよう、お手上げ! って思って。まあ、とにかく高校生は忙しいからさ、修学旅行とか、テスト勉強とか、やむを得ない理由で休む人もたくさんいてね、もうなかなか全員集合できなくって……。しかも平田オリザさんの、とくに『転校生』ていう戯曲は同時多発で会話をすることが多かったから、少人数での稽古っていうのができなくてさ。もうほんとにスケジュール調整が大変だった。で、演出助手のあたしたちはずーっと広田さんと一緒にいるから、その厳しさも分かってるし、そして出席率の高い子もほんとにスケジュールがきついっていうのを分かってるけど、やっぱり、それが全体に浸透して、ある程度みんなの意識が揃ってくるまでには、かなり時間がかかって……。だから最終的には広田さんから、怒るんじゃないけど、「おまえらいい加減にしろ」っていう形で言ったのね。「お芝居っていうのはたとえ親が死んでも幕は上がる。マツケンは奥さん亡くなった日もマツケン・サンバを踊ったんだよ!」みたいなことを、本気で言ったら、もう……それを聞いてるときのみんなの目が、もうキラッキラしてんの。「はい!」「はい!」「分かりました!」みたいな(笑) で、そのあたりから意識がガラッと変わってきて。科白もね、やっぱりみんな曖昧に覚えてきちゃうんで、それも広田さんが、逐一「おまえそれなんだよ」ってしつこく言って、「甘いんだよ」って言って、科白が抜けたりするのもバンッて怒って。そうするともう、大人の役者と違って100%で受け止めるからさ、泣くんだよね。泣いて泣いて、……でも次の日は、ほんとに家で必死にやったんだろうなって分かるぐらい、スイッチ入った感じでバリっとやってくるのね。

 

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それってすごいな、って思って。あたしも最初は、ほんとにこいつらうっせーお猿さんだなー、ぐらいに思ってたんだけど、なんかね、日に日に愛情が増してきて、自分が産んだ子じゃないんだけどさ、なんかうちの子が一番かわいい、じゃないけど、みんなもう可愛くて可愛くて、みたいなことになってって(笑)

 

 ……で、本番間近になっても、やっぱりみんな舞台初めてだからさ、どうしても、みんな科白は少ないんだけど、科白を噛んだり、抜けたりっていうことが結構あって、いい加減やばいぞみたいな感じになるよね。あたしたちも「そんなんじゃ舞台に立てないよ!」ってプレッシャー掛けて。そうしたら、彼女たち自身にも「これじゃ駄目だ」みたいな意識が芽生えてきて、リーダーシップ取る人があらわれたり、メイクをやりながらも科白合わせをしたり、通し稽古の最中に間違いをした人がいると、「今の間違いはなんで起きたのかちょっと話し合おう」って、自発的にミーティングがはじまったり……そういうことがどんどん浸透していって、っていうのも、わたしからするとすごい新鮮で。

 

 ……たぶん、広田さんも似たようなことを感じたんじゃないかな。100%で言ったら100%で返ってくるっていうのが好きじゃん、広田さんは? それですごく満たされた部分もあったんだろうね。だって、演劇をやったことのない、そして演劇を今後つづけるかも分からない、そういう十代の人たちが、広田さんと出会って、『転校生』っていう作品と出会って、それで人生が変わったって本気で言うわけよ。やっぱ大人ってさ、子供たちに対して一歩引いて付き合ってるような人が多いから、たとえ教育の現場だとしても、一緒になってガッと何かやるみたいなことってあんまりないと思うんだよね。そんな中で広田さんが、自分たちからしたら十五以上離れてるような大人が、自分のことをこんなに見てくれて、一緒になって、必死に立ち向かってくれたっていう経験は、彼女たちにとって、すごく大きかったんだと思う。ホントに言うんだよ、人生が変わったって。あの、最後一人ずつ話してもらったんだけどね、最終日に……。で、びっくりしたんだけど、あの世代の子って学校でいじめられてて、っていう人が多いんだよ。順番なんだって、いじめの対象が。もちろんいじめられてない人もいるんだけど、やっぱ演劇が好きな人って、ちょっと周りとは違った感覚を持ってたりもするじゃない? だから、「自分は学校でいじめられてた」「不登校だった」って人がそこそこ居てさ。その子たちが、「人生が変わった」って、本気で言うの。なんか、変に大人が綺麗事を言うのとは全然重みがちがくて、……ああ、演劇ってこんな力があるんだって、なんか心からほんとに感動しちゃったあたしも。

 

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 ……あたしはやっぱりさ、演劇やってるなかで色んな……なんだろな、上手くいかないこととか、オーディションに落ちたりとか、同じ世代の人が活躍してたりとかね(笑) 全然ままならない現実の中でやりつづけてると、これははたして意味があるのか? っていうようなことを、つねに考えちゃうわけよ。で、演劇を辞める、ってこともずーっと頭のなかにはあるんだけど……。でもそういうときに高校生たちと出会って……そうすると、やっぱり現場で、広田さんとあたしとで培ってきたものがあるからこそ解決できたことが、たくさんあって。広田さんがやりたいことって、その現場ではあたししか体現できなかったりするから。それは、言葉とか、文字ベースでは伝えられることじゃなくて、でも、あたしが目の前で実践するのを見せれば、高校生たちもものすごく納得して、やれるようになるのよ、同じことが。それって、広田さんとあたしが積み重ねてきたこの十年ちかくがあるから、できたことだったんだなあ、って。だから、過去のあの瞬間に演劇辞めなかったのは、このためだったんだなっていうのが、あたしのなかではすごく集約されてたんだ、この『転校生』っていう公演に。

 

 ……あと、広田さんが最近抱えている問題意識も、『転校生』の演出で解決できた部分もあるんじゃないかな? ……あのー『しあわせな日々』〔※2012年8月。作:サミュエル・ベケット/演出:広田淳一〕のとき、利賀の演劇コンクールに行ったじゃない? あのとき平田オリザさんが審査員をやってらしたんだけど、「君はベケットの問題意識を自分に引き付けすぎているんじゃないか? それでは矮小化してしまっているんじゃないか?」みたいなダメ出しをされてて。たぶん、それが結構、広田さんの中に残ってたと思うのね。で、この『転校生』はオリザさんの戯曲でしょ? 最初はちょっと遠慮みたいのがあったんじゃないかな、ビビってたっていうかね、あったんじゃないかと思う。でも、オリザさんは、科白も変えていい、もう自由にやっちゃってくれって仰ってたんだけど、まあ、なかなか広田さんが演出を決めない。あ、それはいつもだけど(笑) でも、なかなか思いきったことをしないな、って思ってて。ちょっと「大丈夫かな?」って思ってたんだけど……。まあ、けっこう稽古の終盤になってから照明をやってくださった木藤歩さんとか、美術の杉山至さんとかにもいろいろとアドバイスをいただりして作品が急速に育っていって……。結果としては、すごくいい仕事ができたんじゃないかな、広田さんにとっても。納得のいく作品になったみたいだし、だからそう、広田さんにとっては芸術的な意味でも、演劇をこれからつづけていくっていう意味でも、すごく大きい体験だったんじゃないかと思います。『穂の国の「転校生」』は。

 

───なるほど……。

 

笠井:あたしも色々出てるけどさ、演劇の世界に入って十二、三年ぐらいで? でも、あれが一番すばらしい公演だったと思う。自分は役者としては出てないけどね。

 

───ありがとうございました。……それでは、座談会は以上となります。お疲れさまでした。

 

一同:お疲れさまでした!

 

(了)

 


54 thoughts on “アマヤドリ古参劇団員座談会・後編!!

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  12. If you’re still on the fence: grab your favorite earphones, head down to a Best Buy and ask to plug them into a Zune then an iPod and see which one sounds better to you, and which interface makes you smile more. Then you’ll know which is right for you.

  13. Apple now has Rhapsody as an app, which is a great start, but it is currently hampered by the inability to store locally on your iPod, and has a dismal 64kbps bit rate. If this changes, then it will somewhat negate this advantage for the Zune, but the 10 songs per month will still be a big plus in Zune Pass’ favor.

  14. Sorry for the huge review, but I’m really loving the new Zune, and hope this, as well as the excellent reviews some other people have written, will help you decide if it’s the right choice for you.

  15. Between me and my husband we’ve owned more MP3 players over the years than I could count, including Sansas, iRivers, iPods (classic & touch), the Ibiza Rhapsody, etc. But, the previous couple of years I’ve settled down to 1 distinct players. Why? Because I was happy to discover how well-designed and fun to use the underappreciated (and widely mocked) Zunes are.

  16. Zune and iPod: Most people compare the Zune to the Touch, but after seeing how slim and surprisingly small and light it is, I consider it to be a rather unique hybrid that combines qualities of both the Touch and the Nano. It’s very colorful and lovely OLED screen is slightly smaller than the touch screen, but the player itself feels quite a bit smaller and lighter. It weighs about 2/3 as much, and is noticeably smaller in width and height, while being just a hair thicker.

  17. The Zune concentrates on being a Portable Media Player. Not a web browser. Not a game machine. Maybe in the future it’ll do even better in those areas, but for now it’s a fantastic way to organize and listen to your music and videos, and is without peer in that regard. The iPod’s strengths are its web browsing and apps. If those sound more compelling, perhaps it is your best choice.

  18. The Zune concentrates on being a Portable Media Player. Not a web browser. Not a game machine. Maybe in the future it’ll do even better in those areas, but for now it’s a fantastic way to organize and listen to your music and videos, and is without peer in that regard. The iPod’s strengths are its web browsing and apps. If those sound more compelling, perhaps it is your best choice.

  19. Hands down, Apple’s app store wins by a mile. It’s a huge selection of all sorts of apps vs a rather sad selection of a handful for Zune. Microsoft has plans, especially in the realm of games, but I’m not sure I’d want to bet on the future if this aspect is important to you. The iPod is a much better choice in that case.

  20. Between me and my husband we’ve owned more MP3 players over time than I will count, including Sansas, iRivers, iPods (classic & touch), the Ibiza Rhapsody, etc. But, the previous few years I’ve settled down to one distinct players. Why? Because I was happy to find how well-designed and fun to use the underappreciated (and widely mocked) Zunes are.

  21. Zune and iPod: Most people compare the Zune to the Touch, but after seeing how slim and surprisingly small and light it is, I consider it to be a rather unique hybrid that combines qualities of both the Touch and the Nano. It’s very colorful and lovely OLED screen is slightly smaller than the touch screen, but the player itself feels quite a bit smaller and lighter. It weighs about 2/3 as much, and is noticeably smaller in width and height, while being just a hair thicker.

  22. The new Zune browser is surprisingly good, but not as good as the iPod’s. It works well, but isn’t as fast as Safari, and has a clunkier interface. If you occasionally plan on using the web browser that’s not an issue, but if you’re planning to browse the web alot from your PMP then the iPod’s larger screen and better browser may be important.

  23. If you’re still on the fence: grab your favorite earphones, head down to a Best Buy and ask to plug them into a Zune then an iPod and see which one sounds better to you, and which interface makes you smile more. Then you’ll know which is right for you.

  24. I’ll gear this review to 2 types of people: current Zune owners who are considering an upgrade, and people trying to decide between a Zune and an iPod. (There are other players worth considering out there, like the Sony Walkman X, but I hope this gives you enough info to make an informed decision of the Zune vs players other than the iPod line as well.)

  25. I’ll gear this review to 2 types of people: current Zune owners who are considering an upgrade, and people trying to decide between a Zune and an iPod. (There are other players worth considering out there, like the Sony Walkman X, but I hope this gives you enough info to make an informed decision of the Zune vs players other than the iPod line as well.)

  26. Sorry for the huge review, but I’m really loving the new Zune, and hope this, as well as the excellent reviews some other people have written, will help you decide if it’s the right choice for you.

  27. Apple now has Rhapsody as an app, which is a great start, but it is currently hampered by the inability to store locally on your iPod, and has a dismal 64kbps bit rate. If this changes, then it will somewhat negate this advantage for the Zune, but the 10 songs per month will still be a big plus in Zune Pass’ favor.

  28. If you’re still on the fence: grab your favorite earphones, head down to a Best Buy and ask to plug them into a Zune then an iPod and see which one sounds better to you, and which interface makes you smile more. Then you’ll know which is right for you.

  29. Zune and iPod: Most people compare the Zune to the Touch, but after seeing how slim and surprisingly small and light it is, I consider it to be a rather unique hybrid that combines qualities of both the Touch and the Nano. It’s very colorful and lovely OLED screen is slightly smaller than the touch screen, but the player itself feels quite a bit smaller and lighter. It weighs about 2/3 as much, and is noticeably smaller in width and height, while being just a hair thicker.

  30. Apple now has Rhapsody as an app, which is a great start, but it is currently hampered by the inability to store locally on your iPod, and has a dismal 64kbps bit rate. If this changes, then it will somewhat negate this advantage for the Zune, but the 10 songs per month will still be a big plus in Zune Pass’ favor.

  31. The new Zune browser is surprisingly good, but not as good as the iPod’s. It works well, but isn’t as fast as Safari, and has a clunkier interface. If you occasionally plan on using the web browser that’s not an issue, but if you’re planning to browse the web alot from your PMP then the iPod’s larger screen and better browser may be important.

  32. The Zune concentrates on being a Portable Media Player. Not a web browser. Not a game machine. Maybe in the future it’ll do even better in those areas, but for now it’s a fantastic way to organize and listen to your music and videos, and is without peer in that regard. The iPod’s strengths are its web browsing and apps. If those sound more compelling, perhaps it is your best choice.

  33. Apple now has Rhapsody as an app, which is a great start, but it is currently hampered by the inability to store locally on your iPod, and has a dismal 64kbps bit rate. If this changes, then it will somewhat negate this advantage for the Zune, but the 10 songs per month will still be a big plus in Zune Pass’ favor.

  34. I’ll gear this review to 2 types of people: current Zune owners who are considering an upgrade, and people trying to decide between a Zune and an iPod. (There are other players worth considering out there, like the Sony Walkman X, but I hope this gives you enough info to make an informed decision of the Zune vs players other than the iPod line as well.)

  35. Between me and my husband we’ve owned more MP3 players over time than I could count, including Sansas, iRivers, iPods (classic & touch), the Ibiza Rhapsody, etc. But, the previous few years I’ve settled down to 1 line of players. Why? Because I was happy to find how well-designed and fun to utilize the underappreciated (and widely mocked) Zunes are.

  36. If you’re still on the fence: grab your favorite earphones, head down to a Best Buy and ask to plug them into a Zune then an iPod and see which one sounds better to you, and which interface makes you smile more. Then you’ll know which is right for you.

  37. This is getting a bit more subjective, but I much prefer the Zune Marketplace. The interface is colorful, has more flair, and some cool features like ‘Mixview’ that let you quickly see related albums, songs, or other users related to what you’re listening to. Clicking on one of those will center on that item, and another set of “neighbors” will come into view, allowing you to navigate around exploring by similar artists, songs, or users. Speaking of users, the Zune “Social” is also great fun, letting you find others with shared tastes and becoming friends with them. You then can listen to a playlist created based on an amalgamation of what all your friends are listening to, which is also enjoyable. Those concerned with privacy will be relieved to know you can prevent the public from seeing your personal listening habits if you so choose.

  38. The new Zune browser is surprisingly good, but not as good as the iPod’s. It works well, but isn’t as fast as Safari, and has a clunkier interface. If you occasionally plan on using the web browser that’s not an issue, but if you’re planning to browse the web alot from your PMP then the iPod’s larger screen and better browser may be important.

  39. If you’re still on the fence: grab your favorite earphones, head down to a Best Buy and ask to plug them into a Zune then an iPod and see which one sounds better to you, and which interface makes you smile more. Then you’ll know which is right for you.

  40. Between me and my husband we’ve owned more MP3 players over time than I can count, including Sansas, iRivers, iPods (classic & touch), the Ibiza Rhapsody, etc. But, the previous couple of years I’ve settled down to at least one type of players. Why? Because I was happy to discover how well-designed and fun to use the underappreciated (and widely mocked) Zunes are.

  41. Between me and my husband we’ve owned more MP3 players through the years than I can count, including Sansas, iRivers, iPods (classic & touch), the Ibiza Rhapsody, etc. But, the previous couple of years I’ve settled down to 1 type of players. Why? Because I was happy to find how well-designed and fun to use the underappreciated (and widely mocked) Zunes are.

  42. Sorry for the huge review, but I’m really loving the new Zune, and hope this, as well as the excellent reviews some other people have written, will help you decide if it’s the right choice for you.

  43. This is getting a bit more subjective, but I much prefer the Zune Marketplace. The interface is colorful, has more flair, and some cool features like ‘Mixview’ that let you quickly see related albums, songs, or other users related to what you’re listening to. Clicking on one of those will center on that item, and another set of “neighbors” will come into view, allowing you to navigate around exploring by similar artists, songs, or users. Speaking of users, the Zune “Social” is also great fun, letting you find others with shared tastes and becoming friends with them. You then can listen to a playlist created based on an amalgamation of what all your friends are listening to, which is also enjoyable. Those concerned with privacy will be relieved to know you can prevent the public from seeing your personal listening habits if you so choose.

  44. Between me and my husband we’ve owned more MP3 players over time than I could count, including Sansas, iRivers, iPods (classic & touch), the Ibiza Rhapsody, etc. But, the previous few years I’ve settled down to at least one distinct players. Why? Because I was happy to find how well-designed and fun to utilize the underappreciated (and widely mocked) Zunes are.

  45. Sorry for the huge review, but I’m really loving the new Zune, and hope this, as well as the excellent reviews some other people have written, will help you decide if it’s the right choice for you.

  46. This is getting a bit more subjective, but I much prefer the Zune Marketplace. The interface is colorful, has more flair, and some cool features like ‘Mixview’ that let you quickly see related albums, songs, or other users related to what you’re listening to. Clicking on one of those will center on that item, and another set of “neighbors” will come into view, allowing you to navigate around exploring by similar artists, songs, or users. Speaking of users, the Zune “Social” is also great fun, letting you find others with shared tastes and becoming friends with them. You then can listen to a playlist created based on an amalgamation of what all your friends are listening to, which is also enjoyable. Those concerned with privacy will be relieved to know you can prevent the public from seeing your personal listening habits if you so choose.

  47. I’ll gear this review to 2 types of people: current Zune owners who are considering an upgrade, and people trying to decide between a Zune and an iPod. (There are other players worth considering out there, like the Sony Walkman X, but I hope this gives you enough info to make an informed decision of the Zune vs players other than the iPod line as well.)

  48. I’ll gear this review to 2 types of people: current Zune owners who are considering an upgrade, and people trying to decide between a Zune and an iPod. (There are other players worth considering out there, like the Sony Walkman X, but I hope this gives you enough info to make an informed decision of the Zune vs players other than the iPod line as well.)

  49. The new Zune browser is surprisingly good, but not as good as the iPod’s. It works well, but isn’t as fast as Safari, and has a clunkier interface. If you occasionally plan on using the web browser that’s not an issue, but if you’re planning to browse the web alot from your PMP then the iPod’s larger screen and better browser may be important.

  50. The new Zune browser is surprisingly good, but not as good as the iPod’s. It works well, but isn’t as fast as Safari, and has a clunkier interface. If you occasionally plan on using the web browser that’s not an issue, but if you’re planning to browse the web alot from your PMP then the iPod’s larger screen and better browser may be important.

  51. The Zune concentrates on being a Portable Media Player. Not a web browser. Not a game machine. Maybe in the future it’ll do even better in those areas, but for now it’s a fantastic way to organize and listen to your music and videos, and is without peer in that regard. The iPod’s strengths are its web browsing and apps. If those sound more compelling, perhaps it is your best choice.

  52. Sorry for the huge review, but I’m really loving the new Zune, and hope this, as well as the excellent reviews some other people have written, will help you decide if it’s the right choice for you.

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